Big 12 Expansion

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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by Marathon Wave »

Winning always important. But, now, more than ever. Let's run the table, win the conference, and make TU the team others want in their conference.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by tjtlja »

Saw the Memphis AD quoted as saying it came down to size of school and the markets in which they reside. He was disappointed and frustrated.

I would love to know if Tulane was discussed and did Dannen get any feedback.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

tjtlja wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:41 pm Saw the Memphis AD quoted as saying it came down to size of school and the markets in which they reside. He was disappointed and frustrated.

I would love to know if Tulane was discussed and did Dannen get any feedback.
It does feel an awful lot like Memphis and BSU were teams 5 and 6 in the pecking order. That would mean we were no higher than 7th and that might be generous giving the school size metric. You know who else can't feel good right now? SMU, who I never, ever saw mentioned as a possibility.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by TU77CAL82 »

At this point I think that AAC and MWC should merge into a 20 team conference, with two 10 team divisions, that maybe only meet in the championship. ( I think one team may need to be added.) Strength in numbers. Of course, it all depends on what ESPN wants.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by waverider »

Per Pete Thamel:
The AAC is planning to re-make itself in the wake of three schools leaving today. The conference plans to be aggressive and has begun planning a path forward.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by PeteRasche »

Outlaw, I posted elsewhere but I saw at least one story that had Boise, Memphis, SMU and USF listed as next. We were not even mentioned.

I hadn't seen anything on social media (because I don't follow anything that would share Memphis stuff) but FTW had a tweet that made it sound like Memphis was very sour grapes about it... Some joke about "we're sure our invitation must be delayed in the mail" or something.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

PeteRasche wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:53 pm Outlaw, I posted elsewhere but I saw at least one story that had Boise, Memphis, SMU and USF listed as next. We were not even mentioned.

I hadn't seen anything on social media (because I don't follow anything that would share Memphis stuff) but FTW had a tweet that made it sound like Memphis was very sour grapes about it... Some joke about "we're sure our invitation must be delayed in the mail" or something.
Memphis is definitely displeased. They've done more on the field than Houston lately and generally meet the other requirements. They also care a lot about basketball and we are losing two of our best brands in that sport. Not a great day for them.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by tjtlja »

Outlaw, a disappointing day for the AAC. Given our overall level of improvement in football, how do we maintain that trajectory? How does this affect recruiting? How do or can we make ourselves attractive enough to make the cut next time? And is it possible we can add teams that are competitively as good as Cinncy and UCF (zero reason at this time to include Houston)? And do you think the Oklahoma game boosted our stock in any way - something along the lines that this a team to keep an eye on? By the way, we are a 44.5 point favorite tomorrow - safe to say that is a first. Roll Wave!!!
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

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GSx wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:16 pm
randymc wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:31 am looks like Aresco will let the traitorous 3 out of their AAC contracts a bit early and that we will be aggressive as a conference adding 2-4 teams; based on a memphis newspaper interview with Aresco in the past day.
if adding two: Boise State and San Diego State.
if four: the teams mentioned above plus UAB and Buffalo.
Other options-- Florida Atlantic, UT San Antonio, Air Force, Army, Colorado St., Charlotte, Coastal Carolina.
Long shots: Old Dominion, La. Tech, Appalachian State, Arkansas St., Western Ky, or Nevada.
You can't blame them for leaving. But no going easy on exit fees either (I remember when the clown C-USA commish Banowsky waived all exit fees when teams left for the BE). They need to pay what they owe.
Other than some MWC teams and Army, the the choices are ugh. I'd probably go with the ones last likely to get in our business: Charlotte and ODU. San Antonio would be fine too, but I don't think SMU would go for that.
We SHOULD be in a better position than we were; I just hope we are.....
I don’t like that the AAC is willing to let them out early and is willing to negotiate the increased exit fee for leaving early.

Big 12 power Kansas currently trails #17 Coastal Carolina 14-9 with 9 mins left in the half. CC was a 25 pt favorite.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by PeteRasche »

Here's a ray of sunshine:
There are quotes in the media today from multiple Big 12 ADs saying it's likely they are not done expanding, and though not likely to add more before the 2024 addition of these 4, there could be more in the next 8 to 10 years. The media of course starts throwing swags at who it would be and comes up with Boise and Memphis. But if they are talking 8+ years and definitely nothing until after 2024, that's plenty of time for Tulane to make a leap forward. If we play the rest of the year like we played against OU we'll have a fine start. 2022 has long looked like a very favorable schedule to make a massive impression. By the time we get to 2024 or 2025 Tulane could easily be looking very desirable.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by GSx »

waverider wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:42 pm Per Pete Thamel:
The AAC is planning to re-make itself in the wake of three schools leaving today. The conference plans to be aggressive and has begun planning a path forward.
Now they are planning a path forward...
I hope they aren't late to the party.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

waverider wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:18 pm
GSx wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:16 pm
randymc wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:31 am looks like Aresco will let the traitorous 3 out of their AAC contracts a bit early and that we will be aggressive as a conference adding 2-4 teams; based on a memphis newspaper interview with Aresco in the past day.
if adding two: Boise State and San Diego State.
if four: the teams mentioned above plus UAB and Buffalo.
Other options-- Florida Atlantic, UT San Antonio, Air Force, Army, Colorado St., Charlotte, Coastal Carolina.
Long shots: Old Dominion, La. Tech, Appalachian State, Arkansas St., Western Ky, or Nevada.
You can't blame them for leaving. But no going easy on exit fees either (I remember when the clown C-USA commish Banowsky waived all exit fees when teams left for the BE). They need to pay what they owe.
Other than some MWC teams and Army, the the choices are ugh. I'd probably go with the ones last likely to get in our business: Charlotte and ODU. San Antonio would be fine too, but I don't think SMU would go for that.
We SHOULD be in a better position than we were; I just hope we are.....
I don’t like that the AAC is willing to let them out early and is willing to negotiate the increased exit fee for leaving early.

Big 12 power Kansas currently trails #17 Coastal Carolina 14-9 with 9 mins left in the half. CC was a 25 pt favorite.

What's the alternative? The AAC could only make them stay an extra year based on the current rules. Why not get the extra payout and use it to strengthen the league?
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by wwave »

I know this showing my age by my bias’, but a couple thoughts on leaving members and potential new. I went to Tulane late ‘80s to early ‘90s. I got some good football and the start of some great basketball (thanks Pete!).

For the teams that left, I don’t care about Cincy and UCF. I’ll miss Houston. For me Cincy will forever be one of the worst D1 football programs based on how terrible they were for decades (playing barely a MAC schedule and still be terrible).

Moving forward, I think we at least go to 12. I’d like to see UAB and Rice and then whoever the best Southeast/central up and comers are based on success and budget to get 12 (app st? La tech? Still have an aversion to lulala). Then try like hell to peel some MWC teams for a true western division. I don’t think Boise state has to be involved with right teams. My thought is if we fail on western expansion, we still solidify a decent core around Tulane on the gulf coast.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by GSx »

tulaneoutlaw wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:55 pm What's the alternative? The AAC could only make them stay an extra year based on the current rules. Why not get the extra payout and use it to strengthen the league?
The alternative is to be proactive and not wait until you absolutely have to add when you've lost all of your leverage. It's not that this is a shock to anyone. Now it's desperation with very little leverage.
The teams that could help (and would have improved the league at any time had they been added) are Army and some teams in the MWC. That's it.
Now it's likely fishing in C-USA and the Sunbelt, where the few teams that are consistently good in football (there are maybe 2 or 3 of them) aren't close to being institutional fits. And most of the institutional fits aren't good at ball.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

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tulaneoutlaw wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:55 pm
waverider wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:18 pm
GSx wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:16 pm
randymc wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:31 am looks like Aresco will let the traitorous 3 out of their AAC contracts a bit early and that we will be aggressive as a conference adding 2-4 teams; based on a memphis newspaper interview with Aresco in the past day.
if adding two: Boise State and San Diego State.
if four: the teams mentioned above plus UAB and Buffalo.
Other options-- Florida Atlantic, UT San Antonio, Air Force, Army, Colorado St., Charlotte, Coastal Carolina.
Long shots: Old Dominion, La. Tech, Appalachian State, Arkansas St., Western Ky, or Nevada.
You can't blame them for leaving. But no going easy on exit fees either (I remember when the clown C-USA commish Banowsky waived all exit fees when teams left for the BE). They need to pay what they owe.
Other than some MWC teams and Army, the the choices are ugh. I'd probably go with the ones last likely to get in our business: Charlotte and ODU. San Antonio would be fine too, but I don't think SMU would go for that.
We SHOULD be in a better position than we were; I just hope we are.....
I don’t like that the AAC is willing to let them out early and is willing to negotiate the increased exit fee for leaving early.

Big 12 power Kansas currently trails #17 Coastal Carolina 14-9 with 9 mins left in the half. CC was a 25 pt favorite.

What's the alternative? The AAC could only make them stay an extra year based on the current rules. Why not get the extra payout and use it to strengthen the league?
Do one or the other. If they are allowed to leave early, make them pay the additional fee and not negotiate it to a lower amount.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

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GSx wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:16 pm
tulaneoutlaw wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:55 pm What's the alternative? The AAC could only make them stay an extra year based on the current rules. Why not get the extra payout and use it to strengthen the league?
The alternative is to be proactive and not wait until you absolutely have to add when you've lost all of your leverage. It's not that this is a shock to anyone. Now it's desperation with very little leverage.
The teams that could help (and would have improved the league at any time had they been added) are Army and some teams in the MWC. That's it.
Now it's likely fishing in C-USA and the Sunbelt, where the few teams that are consistently good in football (there are maybe 2 or 3 of them) aren't close to being institutional fits. And most of the institutional fits aren't good at ball.
What makes you think there were teams that would have added value and we didn't try simply because we were "not proactive" (what, lazy?)? How do you know that "Army and various MWC teams" add value but we never bothered? Do you have info that contradicts what hit the news? Because there were literally stories written when UConn announced they were leaving that Aresco had serious talks with multiple other schools and with ESPN, and it was agreed none of the options were worth it. Aresco stated after studying all the available opportunities, our best financial option was to stand pat at 11. Now all of a sudden we were just being lazy? Or are you just making up stories to fit your narrative?
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

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PeteRasche wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:48 pm Here's a ray of sunshine:
There are quotes in the media today from multiple Big 12 ADs saying it's likely they are not done expanding, and though not likely to add more before the 2024 addition of these 4, there could be more in the next 8 to 10 years. The media of course starts throwing swags at who it would be and comes up with Boise and Memphis. But if they are talking 8+ years and definitely nothing until after 2024, that's plenty of time for Tulane to make a leap forward. If we play the rest of the year like we played against OU we'll have a fine start. 2022 has long looked like a very favorable schedule to make a massive impression. By the time we get to 2024 or 2025 Tulane could easily be looking very desirable.
This
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

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The things I am most concerned about is recruiting and WF’s thoughts on all of this. Can we maintain the level of recruiting we have accomplished the past several years? Does WF want to stay in a watered down league? It s critical we get better each year. That combination is WF and continued success on the recruiting trail. With these defections in the league, is the combination of WF and good recruiting sustainable?

The other thing I cannot believe is we have seen no comments from Fitts, Dannen, or Fritz. I feel like we have thrown in the towel. The pool of viable teams left in the G5 is shrinking significantly. I want to know where we stand. I want to know if our university is being aggressive in trying to get in the Big 12. It just feels like we have given up. Let the fans know where we stand and what we doing moving forward. Watching football tonight and the discussion about the optimism for the teams invited to the Big 12 is hard to swallow. Where are we headed? Can someone at Tulane address this question?

Just heard Memphis and Boise may get an invitation to the Big 12. Our league is being decapitated. This sucks. 60 friggen years and we couldn’t ever get it right. No D1 facilities, no fan base, and no conference. We were blessed to get in the AAC, but it will take a miracle to make the next jump. All we can do is hope this team can really be a significant factor the next two years. After that, it will be CUSA part 2.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by Baywave1 »

If the non SEC P4 stop expansion of CFP to 12 teams then it’s time to to fire up the law suits. It will take ten years but nonP5 teams will win.

Arguably Cowen’s biggest mistake in 1998 was not failure to hire RRod ( and that was a massive mistake) but not litigating Tulane’s exclusion then including Sugar Bowl letting Fox block it from a major NY Bowl.

He had a factual case equivalent to a smoking gun and he passed out of a sense of literal “collegiality.”

I can assure you multiple national litigation firms with resources to match the P5 but more importantly the will and tenacity would take this case on contingency. And then be very happy when they win

This could have been blown apart a long time ago.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

GSx wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:16 pm
tulaneoutlaw wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:55 pm What's the alternative? The AAC could only make them stay an extra year based on the current rules. Why not get the extra payout and use it to strengthen the league?
The alternative is to be proactive and not wait until you absolutely have to add when you've lost all of your leverage. It's not that this is a shock to anyone. Now it's desperation with very little leverage.
The teams that could help (and would have improved the league at any time had they been added) are Army and some teams in the MWC. That's it.
Now it's likely fishing in C-USA and the Sunbelt, where the few teams that are consistently good in football (there are maybe 2 or 3 of them) aren't close to being institutional fits. And most of the institutional fits aren't good at ball.
I agree 100%. When Boise and Air Force where publicly complaining about the MWC last year, we had a chance to strike preemptively. Now that the die is cast pulling the good MWC teams will be much harder
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

waverider wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:54 pm
tulaneoutlaw wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:55 pm
waverider wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:18 pm
GSx wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:16 pm
randymc wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:31 am looks like Aresco will let the traitorous 3 out of their AAC contracts a bit early and that we will be aggressive as a conference adding 2-4 teams; based on a memphis newspaper interview with Aresco in the past day.
if adding two: Boise State and San Diego State.
if four: the teams mentioned above plus UAB and Buffalo.
Other options-- Florida Atlantic, UT San Antonio, Air Force, Army, Colorado St., Charlotte, Coastal Carolina.
Long shots: Old Dominion, La. Tech, Appalachian State, Arkansas St., Western Ky, or Nevada.
You can't blame them for leaving. But no going easy on exit fees either (I remember when the clown C-USA commish Banowsky waived all exit fees when teams left for the BE). They need to pay what they owe.
Other than some MWC teams and Army, the the choices are ugh. I'd probably go with the ones last likely to get in our business: Charlotte and ODU. San Antonio would be fine too, but I don't think SMU would go for that.
We SHOULD be in a better position than we were; I just hope we are.....
I don’t like that the AAC is willing to let them out early and is willing to negotiate the increased exit fee for leaving early.

Big 12 power Kansas currently trails #17 Coastal Carolina 14-9 with 9 mins left in the half. CC was a 25 pt favorite.

What's the alternative? The AAC could only make them stay an extra year based on the current rules. Why not get the extra payout and use it to strengthen the league?
Do one or the other. If they are allowed to leave early, make them pay the additional fee and not negotiate it to a lower amount.
I'm confused on your point rider. In your first post you said you didn't like them being let out early for the increased fee but then here you are saying if they leave early we shouldn't let them negotiate the fee lower to leave. I may just be misreading what you mean.

To be clear, the league rules say you have to give 27 months notice and pay a $10m buyout to leave. It's only 24 months for these defectors to be in the Big 12 by July 1, 2023. So for them to leave when they want, they will have to pay more than the $10m stated, not less. Uconn did not stay 27 months after their announcement to leave and we got $17m out of them. I think we will get a lot more out of these schools leaving early.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

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tjtlja wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:46 am The things I am most concerned about is recruiting and WF’s thoughts on all of this. Can we maintain the level of recruiting we have accomplished the past several years? Does WF want to stay in a watered down league? It s critical we get better each year. That combination is WF and continued success on the recruiting trail. With these defections in the league, is the combination of WF and good recruiting sustainable?

The other thing I cannot believe is we have seen no comments from Fitts, Dannen, or Fritz. I feel like we have thrown in the towel. The pool of viable teams left in the G5 is shrinking significantly. I want to know where we stand. I want to know if our university is being aggressive in trying to get in the Big 12. It just feels like we have given up. Let the fans know where we stand and what we doing moving forward. Watching football tonight and the discussion about the optimism for the teams invited to the Big 12 is hard to swallow. Where are we headed? Can someone at Tulane address this question?

Just heard Memphis and Boise may get an invitation to the Big 12. Our league is being decapitated. This sucks. 60 friggen years and we couldn’t ever get it right. No D1 facilities, no fan base, and no conference. We were blessed to get in the AAC, but it will take a miracle to make the next jump. All we can do is hope this team can really be a significant factor the next two years. After that, it will be CUSA part 2.
Hey tj, I'm going to try to answer some of your previous post and this one here. There are only a lot of opinions and speculation right now, but this is a very unstable time for the AAC. There are a few teams we could add that if they joined would consolidate our on field position as the 6th best league. I've mentioned elsewhere that these are App, Boise, and SDSU based on SP+, a system I really like. We could also add some combo of three more teams like Fresno, Air Force, and UAB to further deplete the MWC and Belt, the two closest leagues to us right now. The league has been damaged badly by this and I don't think it is fixable in the current landscape, but we can get some sandbags around the perimeter.

One off showings like Oklahoma aren't particularly important. Winning matters some but only as much as it increases eyeballs on the team. Between now and the next realignment, we need to add as many folks watching our games as possible. Winning 10+ games and conference championships won't hurt. Neither will upsetting Ole Miss and other autonomy teams in the future. I personally hope we thrash ucf, Houston, and cinci every time we play them the next couple of years.

WF is still paid very well and isn't going to leave unless a bigger job comes calling. After three .500 type seasons it should be clear he will have to truly lead us to a breakthrough to get that kind of offer. Maintaining recruiting is harder though because we can't say we are playing solid teams like Cinci and Houston any more.

I don't think there is any truth to the rumor of Memphis and BSU getting invites right now. These things are typically handled behind the scenes in very quiet ways so that they are totally done before they leak out. The Memphis president complaining to the press about being left out is a strong indicator they aren't being added at this time. I wouldn't expect the B12 to add any more until ou and UT leave and even they may not if there are no good candidates. We will have to do all we can to show them that's us by winning, continuing to invest in the program, drawing more fans and eyeballs etc. The whole thing really, really sucks but I wouldn't go off the deep end. Whatever discussions are being had about Tulanes future will be done quietly, so all we can do is support the team and hope we make the right moves going forward.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by PeteRasche »

tulaneoutlaw wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:34 am I don't think there is any truth to the rumor of Memphis and BSU getting invites right now. These things are typically handled behind the scenes in very quiet ways so that they are totally done before they leak out. The Memphis president complaining to the press about being left out is a strong indicator they aren't being added at this time. I wouldn't expect the B12 to add any more until ou and UT leave and even they may not if there are no good candidates. We will have to do all we can to show them that's us by winning, continuing to invest in the program, drawing more fans and eyeballs etc. The whole thing really, really sucks but I wouldn't go off the deep end. Whatever discussions are being had about Tulanes future will be done quietly, so all we can do is support the team and hope we make the right moves going forward.
This times a billion.

Remember all the "done deal" moves that came out after the OU/TX stuff became official? Kansas to the Big 10, etc.? It was all just media and online bloggers needing something new to talk about and knowing this was a hot topic where any headline could get them clicks. Memphis and Boise are that. The media (and people who make money by getting clicks) want to still have stories now that the Big 12 expansion happened. Hence "what's next?"
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by Carolina Greenie »

The noise of being aggressive makes it sound like ESPN is telling Aresco to grow.

Following/market size/strength of program…..

Honestly, App makes a ton of sense. They have strong support and resilience through coaching changes. Just a bit remote
I know many here scoff, but Charlotte is transforming itself from a commuter school and has a ton of potential.

I understand the benefits of Boise as a winning program, but think they fall on all other points. At least App is reasonably close to other members.

I think UAB is not unreasonable.

Georgia State, Rice, UTSA…..have a great market…….. and thats it.
USL. Has nothing but boudin.
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Re: Big 12 Expansion

Post by waverider »

tulaneoutlaw wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:13 am
waverider wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:54 pm
tulaneoutlaw wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:55 pm
waverider wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:18 pm
GSx wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:16 pm
randymc wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:31 am looks like Aresco will let the traitorous 3 out of their AAC contracts a bit early and that we will be aggressive as a conference adding 2-4 teams; based on a memphis newspaper interview with Aresco in the past day.
if adding two: Boise State and San Diego State.
if four: the teams mentioned above plus UAB and Buffalo.
Other options-- Florida Atlantic, UT San Antonio, Air Force, Army, Colorado St., Charlotte, Coastal Carolina.
Long shots: Old Dominion, La. Tech, Appalachian State, Arkansas St., Western Ky, or Nevada.
You can't blame them for leaving. But no going easy on exit fees either (I remember when the clown C-USA commish Banowsky waived all exit fees when teams left for the BE). They need to pay what they owe.
Other than some MWC teams and Army, the the choices are ugh. I'd probably go with the ones last likely to get in our business: Charlotte and ODU. San Antonio would be fine too, but I don't think SMU would go for that.
We SHOULD be in a better position than we were; I just hope we are.....
I don’t like that the AAC is willing to let them out early and is willing to negotiate the increased exit fee for leaving early.

Big 12 power Kansas currently trails #17 Coastal Carolina 14-9 with 9 mins left in the half. CC was a 25 pt favorite.

What's the alternative? The AAC could only make them stay an extra year based on the current rules. Why not get the extra payout and use it to strengthen the league?
Do one or the other. If they are allowed to leave early, make them pay the additional fee and not negotiate it to a lower amount.
I'm confused on your point rider. In your first post you said you didn't like them being let out early for the increased fee but then here you are saying if they leave early we shouldn't let them negotiate the fee lower to leave. I may just be misreading what you mean.

To be clear, the league rules say you have to give 27 months notice and pay a $10m buyout to leave. It's only 24 months for these defectors to be in the Big 12 by July 1, 2023. So for them to leave when they want, they will have to pay more than the $10m stated, not less. Uconn did not stay 27 months after their announcement to leave and we got $17m out of them. I think we will get a lot more out of these schools leaving early.
When I saw that they would negotiate the buyout fee, I took it as the conference was willing to negotiate and not hold them to the full amount. I hope I misinterpreted that and the negotiation is in regards to paying more to leave early.
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